Discussion utilisateur:Haukur

Transcription vieux norrois / français

Je vois que tu t'intéresses à la mythologie nordique et tu as raison de vouloir harmoniser les transcriptions. Je ne l'ai pas fait car nous sommes actuellement en période de réflexion sur cette question. Après discussions, le choix s’est finalement restreint à deux propositions de transcriptions : « semi-étendue » ou « étendue ». Tu peux participer au vote ici, voire même nous rejoindre dans le projet. A bientôt,

-- GP | ^♫ 2 avril 2006 à 12:56 (CEST)

Hello

Apparently you are not French but fluent French speaker. Would you need a translation of the above please let me know. If not, thanks again for your contribution and feel free to contact us. Make yourself at home, -- GP | ^♫ 2 avril 2006 à 17:57 (CEST)

Je peux bien lire francais (il faut, pour les BDs!) mais l'écrire, c'est plus difficile... Haukur 2 avril 2006 à 17:59 (CEST)

You're doing just great ! Congratulations, I know French writing is a nightmare... Je viens de voir que tu t'es inscrit sur la page "participants" de mythologie nordique, so glad you did it ! Et tu écris sur la page de Sigo... ça il ne va pas aimer, il est un peu tatillon... ;-) tatillon ? look up ! -- GP | ^♫ 3 avril 2006 à 16:25 (CEST)

Je viens de mettre cette page dans ma liste de suivi, de façon à pouvoir repérer ce genre d'appréciations négatives (et parfaitement infondées)... Sigo 5 avril 2006 à 18:48 (CEST)

Bienvenue sur le Wiki francophone...

... et merci pour tes diverses contributions concernant la mythologie nordique. Bonne continuation. Sigo 3 avril 2006 à 00:18 (CEST)

Wow what a zip !

MERCI de tes images ! I'll have a look later on... I already uploaded some images

• 
• Beowulf
• 

all three from University of Nottingham
And yesterday from Norse Mythology Pics:

• 
• 
• 

I'd like to add some more from this latter, but the pb is that I do not know if i'm aloud to, since I don't know who the authors are... Are they dead more than 70 years ago poor things? The webmaster writes "All pictures on this website are in public domain to my best knowledge." I'm afraid this isn't sufficient for Wikipedia requirements... Any advice would be warmly welcome... and if you prefer me to write in French I will do it... :(
PS: in your honour I signed onto the English Wikipedia... GP | ^♫ 3 avril 2006 à 15:45 (CEST)

Hi GP! :) I saw you adding +fr to lots of articles on "en" on my watchlist this morning, nice! I know I sound like a retarded 10-year old in French but I'd like to get a little practice so please bear with me :) It would be nice if you'd write in French; I can easily read it - I'm just no good at writing it. So I'll keep expressing myself in broken French for something short and/or simple but if I need to make a longer or more complex point I may use English. Would that be acceptable?

It's nice to meet someone so keen on finding good images for the mythology articles. I've been doing that on and off for some time. The zip file I sent you contains images from two similar Icelandic manuscripts. I've already uploaded one of the two batches here: [1] I'll do the other one later but I think those are all already at "en" so you've probably seen them.

There's a third Icelandic manuscript with pretty images, AM 738 4to. Here's one of its pictures: [2] Unfortunately I don't have pictures of all the pages from that one :( I've already uploaded the good ones I've got to the English Wikipedia. [3]

It can be tough to find what licence an image has. The page you link to (http://home.earthlink.net/~norsemyths) is quite sloppy. I know for a fact that some of those images are not usable for us since the artist is still alive or recently deseased. Nevertheless I've sometimes given in to temptation and uploaded an image from there when I think it's likely in the public domain.

À bientôt! Haukur 3 avril 2006 à 16:31 (CEST)

Merci pour les images, qui ont effectivement l'air de faire plaisir à GP. Elles me conviennent aussi parfaitement. Si certaines illustrations récentes (XIXe / XXe siècle) sont un peu douteuses car vraiement trop peu authentiques (exemple : Rán avec une queue de sirène), celles provenant de manuscrits sont les bienvenues. Sigo 3 avril 2006 à 19:33 (CEST)

Oui oui, je sais... Mais c'est difficile. Qu'est que'on sait vraiment de Rán? Ou de Sif et plusieurs autres? Presque rien. Donc, l'imagination de l'artiste est très libre. Quelquefois trop libre.

But sometimes the artist chooses to ignore even the few things which we do know. For example the Prose Edda describes Loki as "fríðr ok fagr sýnum" (beautiful and fair to look on). This strongly implies that he has blond hair and I don't think there are any indications that he doesn't. Thus when we get drawings like this one [4] (scroll down a bit) I get dismayed. What's the idea? The bad guy should look like a stereotype of a Jew? Or take this drawing of Frigg [5] It's okay, there's nothing in particular to complain about - but there really isn't anything to identify the woman as Frigg. Thus it makes a rather poor illustration for an encyclopedia, in my opinion, so I don't plan to upload it. When an artwork is famous, of course, it's appropriate to use it or treat it on Wikipedia even if it isn't quite historically or mythologically accurate - as I see you recently discussed the angels (cupids?) in Blommér's well-known Freyja painting. It seems that every other mythology painting had little naked flying guys back in the day :) Haukur 5 avril 2006 à 00:21 (CEST)

• Haukur, Please keep writing sometimes in English and I'll do my best pour écrire en français. Tu es bien trop modeste et tu écris très bien !
• Merci à Sigo et à toi d'avoir corrigé la provenance des manuscrits islandais. J'avais tendance à croire qu'ils venaient tous du Institut Árni Magnússon. Je ne le ferai plus !
• Sigo n'aime pas l'image de Draupnir, peux-tu donner ton avis stp ? Sigo, tu peux peut-être dire ce que tu lui reproches ? (A part le fait de ne pas être Draupnir !). Sur ce, je vais jouer avec mes nouveaux jou joux...

GP | ^♫ 5 avril 2006 à 12:05 (CEST)

Oui, ce n'est pas Draupnir mais aussi... Je ne crois pas que cette plaque d'or représente Freyr et Freyja (peut-être Freyr et Gerðr, mais on ne peut pas en être sûr). Et c'est ni un bracelet ni un anneau :)

Ok... Bye ... Sniff

Je constate que mon avis seul n'avait pas suffi à te faire changer d'avis :( Sigo 5 avril 2006 à 18:49 (CEST)

Il y a quelques images ici Haukur 5 avril 2006 à 13:27 (CEST)

Argh ! Merci pour ce nouveau site, mais c'est très cruel : les images sont très intéressantes, beaucoup sont nouvelles, mais il n'est fait nulle part (as far I can can read Swedish) ni de leur auteur ni de leur descriptif... Alors je ne peux rien en faire sauf les admirer bêtement... GP | ^♫ 5 avril 2006 à 14:15 (CEST)

Courage, mon ami! Selon [6] "Project Runeberg is very careful to respect copyright held by authors, illustrators, and translators." I think we're pretty safe in assuming that everything they publish is in the public domain, as they claim. Wikimedia projects are already using a number of images from them (Njörd, par example). Nevertheless it would be nice to have some information on the illustrators of that old Edda translation. Ils disent aussi "Your questions and comments are most welcome! We answer letters in English, Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, German, and French." donc, peut-être tu peux leur écrire pour obtenir plus d'information :) Haukur 5 avril 2006 à 14:49 (CEST)

« Thus it makes a rather poor illustration for an encyclopedia, in my opinion ». Opinion partagée. D'accord pour les illustrations relativement récentes, même peu réalistes, si elles proviennent d'artistes connus (Blommér, Füssli, Arbo, Winge...), sinon mieux vaut éviter. En revanche, quelques illustrations anciennes (pierres gravées et assimilées) seraient les bienvenues (ex. coffret d'Auzon / Franks Casket pour Völund). Sigo 5 avril 2006 à 18:49 (CEST)

Traduction du suédois

Bonjour,

J'ai vu sur ta page utilisateur du Wiki anglophone que tu indiquais sv-2 dans le boîte Babel. Je voudrais indiquer dans la légende de cette image, qui est utilisée dans l'article Freyja, le nom de l'œuvre. Le titre original est Freja sökande sin maka. Ce tableau est reproduit dans un de mes livres sous le titre Freyja partant à la recherche de son époux. J'ai des doutes sur le « partant à la recherche » : il me semble que « sökande » devrait plutôt se traduire par « cherchant », « recherchant » ou « à la recherche » (je ne parle pas un mot de suédois mais j'ai rapproché « sök- » du « seek » anglais et « -ande » du « -end » allemand). Est-ce que tu as un avis sur le sujet ?

Merci pour ton aide. Sigo 4 avril 2006 à 22:43 (CEST)

Tu as raison! Le mot suédois « söka » (chercher) a le participe présent « sökande » (cherchant). Haukur 4 avril 2006 à 22:55 (CEST)

Merci. Sigo 4 avril 2006 à 23:35 (CEST)

De rien :) Haukur 4 avril 2006 à 23:44 (CEST)

Les illustrations de l'Edda de Sander

Les voilà! [7]

Je les ai toutes uploadées bien que quelques sont déjà là et quelques ne sont pas si bonnes (plus facile pour le robot et pour moi). Ici il y a des informations sur quelques de nos images: [8] Très intéressant, ça. Je veux bien écrire un article avec un titre comme "Norse mythology in visual arts". Haukur 6 avril 2006 à 14:44 (CEST)

Merci, c'est un très beau lot d'images. Bravo pour le travail ! Je regarderai plus en détails quand je reviendrai de vacances... next week ! -- GP | ^♫ 7 avril 2006 à 08:50 (CEST)

Edda de Snorri

Merci. Je vais essayer de compléter un peu l'article ce week-end. Il manque encore deux parties et les résumés de la Gylfaginning et du Háttatal.

Toujours à propos de l'Edda, Vésteinn Ólason disait dans l'allocution que j'évoquais il y a quelques jours : « Some of the mythological stories are among the first readings attempted by university students of Old Icelandic, and in Iceland they are read in primary schools. » Tu confirmes la dernière partie de la phrase ?

D'une façon plus générale, peut-on dire que la notoriété de Snorri en Islande est comparable à celle de Shakespeare au Royaume-Uni ?

Merci pour les réponses. Sigo 7 avril 2006 à 23:49 (CEST)

Answering those questions is a bit beyond my French skills.

I don't remember reading the Edda in primary school but that doesn't really tell us much since it's been more than a decade since I was there and I might not remember or they might have changed the curriculum. When published in editions with normalized modern spelling (like here http://www.snerpa.is/net/snorri/gylf.htm] for example) it certainly could be read in primary school. 13th century Icelandic prose is similar enough to modern Icelandic prose to be understood without special training. The poetry quoted in the Edda is a lot harder for modern readers (be they schoolchildren or not) to digest. Some of the Eddaic poetry is easily understandable while other parts are not. I knew the Völuspá by heart when I was 12 years old while there were large parts of it I didn't understand. Almost all of the court poetry is meaningless goobledeegook to modern readers. You could present most of the Gylfaginning and portions of the Skáldskaparmál to young Icelandic readers but you would be wasting your time with the Háttatal.

By the way - in this context I use "primary school" to mean the school attended by Icelandic children from 6 years to 15 years of age (grunnskóli). In the last two or three years of primary school I remember we read some of the Icelanders' sagas. Some of those were in edited versions where some of the geneologies were cut out and some of the tougher passages were rewritten to be more easily understandable. But in the last year we read Gísla saga in a full edition, quite thoroughly too, though we skipped all the poetry. From what I've seen this is not too dissimilar from how old French texts are prepared for the general reader.

I asked my wife for her opinion about Shakespeare and Snorri and she said that she did not think that the two had similar status in their respective home countries. "Shakespeare is enormously big here in Britain", she said, "maybe the ancient literature of Iceland could stand up to him as a whole but not an individual author, not even the greatest one". She's probably right but Snorri definitely has a very high status in Iceland. In part, I suppose, it's because he's one of the few authors whose names we know from back then. And we have decent biographical information about him as well, allowing us to reflect on his character. Of the other known authors Ari fróði and Sæmundr fróði have the highest name recognition. But only the short Íslendingabók has come down to us of Ari's writings and none of Sæmundr's work has been directly preserved. Speculating on the authors of old Icelandic works of literature is a favorite passtime of literary scholars. Trying to find the elusive author of Njála (höfundur Njálu) is especially popular.

Another thing about Shakespeare and Snorri - Shakespeare is known almost exclusively for his literary works. But Snorri is also a major historical character in his own right. When you ask the man on the street in Iceland about Snorri Sturluson he is as likely to think of his power as a chieftain, his dramatic death (and his hot tub!) as he is to think of the writing of the Heimskringla or the Edda. Haukur 8 avril 2006 à 21:44 (CEST)

Thank you for the answer. And many thanks to your wife for her contribution.

Inasmuch as Vésteinn Ólason must be slightly older than you, maybe Icelandic pupils used to read the Edda in primary schools when he was young. Anyway, I will probably use the information in the article. After all, there’s certainly at least one school where Snorri is still read.

Thanks for the information about Old Norse / modern Icelandic. I had read about that, but it’s nice to have a confirmation by an Icelandic native speaker.

I find it quite fascinating that a medieval writer “has a very high status in Iceland”. There’s no French equivalent of Snorri. The first really well-known writer in France is Molière, whose plays are very often read in grunnskóli (in ‘’collège’’, i.e. from 11 to 15 years old). “The man on the street” in France couldn’t probably give the name of any writer from before the 16th century. It’s true that in the Middle Ages France was behind Iceland as for literature . We’ve made up for it since then, but the quality and quantity of what has been written in Iceland remain astonishing. Sigo 10 avril 2006 à 15:27 (CEST)

Ljósálfaheim

Bonjour,

Il y a quelques temps, tu as renommé l'article Lightalfaheim en Ljósálfaheim. Cette dernière version est évidemment plus authentique mais, après une recherche rapide, je ne l'ai trouvée nulle part. Est-ce que réellement les sources mentionnent un Ljósálfaheim synonyme d'Álfheim, ou est-ce une invention tardive (auquel cas l'article devrait être transformé en redirect) ?

Sigo (tala) 1 mai 2006 à 23:25 (CEST)

Tu as raison. Dans Gylfaginning on trouve:

Þá mælir Gangleri: "Mikil tíðindi kanntu at segja af himninum. Hvat er þar fleira höfuðstaða en at Urðarbrunni?"

Hár segir: "Margir staðir eru þar göfugligir. Sá er einn staðr þar er kallaðr er Álfheimr. Þar byggir fólk þat er Ljósálfar heita, en Døkkálfar búa niðri í jörðu, ok eru þeir ólíkir sýnum ok miklu ólíkari reyndum. Ljósálfar eru fegri en sól sýnum, en Døkkálfar eru svartari biki.

C'est tout, je crois. Donc, il n'y a pas un "Ljósálfaheimr". Les ljósálfar habitent à Álfheimr. Haukur 2 mai 2006 à 03:01 (CEST)

Sagnanet

Merci pour le lien. Traduction parfois amusante, mais intéressante. Sigo (tala) 20 juillet 2006 à 19:54 (CEST)